On January 2, 2021, four days before Congress met to count the electoral votes, President Trump called Georgia’s Secretary of State. Mark Meadows opens the call by naming everyone on it: the chief of staff, three lawyers working for the President, Raffensperger, a deputy, and the Secretary of State’s general counsel. Somebody recorded it. The call ran about an hour, and almost all of it is Trump reciting numbers while the two Georgia officials tell him, over and over, in increasingly narrow language, that the numbers are not real.
Meadows opens the call
MeadowsMr. President, everyone is on the line. And just so this is Mark Meadows, the chief of staff. Just so we all are aware. On the line is secretary of state, and two other individuals. Jordan and Mr. Germany with him. You also have the attorneys that represent the president, Kurt and Alex and Cleta Mitchell, who is not the attorney of record but has been involved, myself and then the president. So Mr. President, I'll turn it over to you.
TrumpOkay, thank you very much. Hello Brad and Ryan and everybody. We appreciate the time and the call. So we've spent a lot of time on this and if we could just go over some of the numbers, I think it's pretty clear that we won. We won very substantially in Georgia. You even see it by rally size, frankly. We'd be getting 25-30,000 people a rally and the competition would get less than 100 people. And it never made sense.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 00:00 to 00:38.]
The recitation
Trump spoke almost without interruption for the first eleven minutes. The numbers arrive in a steady stream, each one specific, most of them attached to a category of fraud.
TrumpAnother tremendous number. We're going to have an accurate number over the next two days with certified accountants, but an accurate number will be given. But it's in the fifties of thousands and that's people that went to vote and they were told they can't vote because they've already been voted for. And it's a very sad thing. They walked out complaining, but the number is large we'll have it for you, but it's much more than the number of 11,779. The current margin is only 11,779. Brad, I think you agree with that, right? That's something, I think, at least that's a number that everyone agrees on.
TrumpWe had at least 18,000, that's on tape, we had them counted very painstakingly. 18,000 voters having to do with Ruby Freeman. She's a vote scammer, a professional vote scammer and hustler Ruby Freeman.
TrumpThe bottom line is when you add it all up and then you start adding 300, 000 fake ballots.
TrumpAnd people should be happy to have an accurate count, instead of an election where there's turmoil. I mean there's turmoil in Georgia and other places. You're not the only one. I mean, we have other States that I believe will be flipping to us very shortly.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 01:42 to 10:11.]
Raffensperger answers
Meadows asked whether there was some way to look at the allegations together, something “less litigious.” Raffensperger took the question and gave the answer he would repeat for the rest of the hour.
RaffenspergerWell, I listened to what the president has just said, President Trump, we've had several lawsuits and we've had to respond in court to the lawsuits and the contentions. We don't agree that you have one. I didn't agree about the 200,000 number that you'd mentioned, and I'll go through that point by point.
RaffenspergerI don't believe that you're really questioning the Dominion machines because we did a hand re-tally, a 100% re-tally of all the ballots and compare that to what the machine said. And it came up with virtually the same result. Then we did the recount, and we got virtually the same result. So I guess we can probably take that off the table.
TrumpThese are the most minimal numbers, the numbers that I gave you, those are numbers that are certified, your absentee ballots sent to vacant addresses, your out-of-state voters, 4,925. When you add them up, it's many more times, it's many times the 11,779 number. So we could go through ... we have not gone through your Dominion, so we can't give them blessing. I mean, in other states, we think we found tremendous corruption with Dominion machines, but we'll have to see.
TrumpBecause what's the difference between winning the election by two votes and winning it by half a million votes. I think I probably did win it by half a million. One of the things that happened, Brad, is we have other people coming in now from Alabama and from South Carolina, and from other states, and they're saying it's impossible for you to have lost Georgia.
TrumpIt's just not possible to have lost Georgia, it's not possible.
TrumpWhen I heard it was close, I said, "There's no way." But they dropped a lot of votes in there late at night, you know that, Brad. And that's what we are working on very, very stringently.
TrumpAnd the people of Georgia are angry, the people of the country are angry. And there's nothing wrong with saying that you've recalculated. Because the 2,236 in absentee ballots, I mean, they're all exact numbers that were done by accounting firms, law firms, et cetera. And even if you cut them in half, cut them in half, and cut them in half again, it's more votes than we need.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 14:02 to 18:53.]
Then the dead voters, where Raffensperger had a specific figure.
RaffenspergerWell, Mr. President, the challenge that you have is the data you have is wrong. We talked to the congressmen and they were surprised. I guess there was a person named Mr. Braynard who came to these meetings and presented data, and he said that there was dead people, I believe it was upward of 5,000. The actual number were two, two. Two people that were dead that voted and so that's wrong.
TrumpWell, Cleta, how do you respond to that? I mean, you tell me.
MitchellWell, I would say, Mr. Secretary, one of the things that we have requested and what we said was, and if you read our petition, it said that we took the names and birth years, and we had certain information available to us. We have asked from your office for records that only you have, and so we said there is a universe of people who have the same name and same birth year and died. But we don't have the records that you have.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 19:23 to 19:54.]
Ruby Freeman
TrumpBut is that we're so far ahead of these numbers, even the phony ballots of Ruby Freeman, known scammer. You know the internet, you know what was trending on the internet? "Where's Ruby?" Because they thought she'd be in jail. "Where's Ruby?" It's crazy, it's crazy. The minimum number is 18,000 for Ruby, but they think it's probably about 56,000. But the minimum number is 18,000 on the Ruby Freeman night where she ran back in there when everybody was gone and she stuffed the ballot boxes. Let's face it, Brad, I mean, they did it in slow motion replay magnified, right? She stuffed the ballot boxes. They were stuffed like nobody has ever seen them stuffed before.
TrumpSo there's a term for it when it's a machine instead of a ballot box, but she stuffed the machine. She stuffed the ballot. Each ballot went three times, they were showing, here's ballot number, here it is a second time, third time, next ballot. I mean, look, Brad, we have a new tape that we're going to release, it's devastating. And by the way, that one event is much more than the 11,000 votes that we're talking about.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 20:48 to 21:55.]
The tape
Cleta Mitchell, a lawyer working for the President, took over the questioning about the Fulton County tape. The Secretary of State’s general counsel answered.
TrumpIt was 18,000 ballots, but they used each one three times.
MitchellI've watched the entire tape.
MitchellHow many ballots, Mr. Secretary, are you saying were processed then?
RaffenspergerWe had GPI certainly investigate that.
GermanyThis is Ryan Germany. We had our law enforcement officers talk to everyone who was there after that event came to light. GBI was with them, as well as F.B.I. agents.
TrumpThere's only two answers, dishonesty or incompetence. There's just no way. Look, there's no way.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 26:46 to 27:40.]
The voters who moved away
Mitchell had a category of voters who registered in another state after leaving Georgia. Germany had checked them.
GermanyWe've been going through each of those as well, and those numbers that we got, that Ms. Mitchell was just saying, they're not accurate. Every one we've been through are people that lived in Georgia, moved to a different state, but then moved back to Georgia legitimately.
TrumpReally, how may people do that? You mean they moved out, and then they said, "Ah, to hell with it, I'll move back in." It doesn't sound like a very normal ... you mean they moved out, and what, they missed it so much that they wanted to move back in? Yeah, it's crazy.
GermanyAnd this is, they moved back in years ago. This was not like something just before the election. So there's something about that data that it's just not accurate.
TrumpWell, I don't know, all I know is that it is certified. And they moved out of Georgia and they voted. It didn't say they moved back in, Cleta, did it?
MitchellNo, but I mean, we're looking at the voter registrat- again, if you have additional records, we've been asking for that, but you haven't shared any of that with us.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 28:24 to 29:29.]
Dominion, and the shredding
TrumpNow do you think it's possible that they shredded ballots in Fulton County? Because that's what the rumor is. And also that Dominion took out machines. That Dominion is really moving fast to get rid of their machinery. Do you know anything about that?
GermanyThis is Ryan Germany, no, Dominion has not moved any machinery out of Fulton County
TrumpBut have they moved the inner parts of the machines and replaced them with other parts?
TrumpAre you sure, Ryan?
GermanyI'm sure, I'm sure, Mr. President.
TrumpWhat about the ballots, the shredding of the ballots, have they been shredding ballots?
GermanyThe only investigation that we have into that, they have not been shredding any ballots. There was an issue in Cobb County where they were doing normal office shredding, getting rid of old stuff, and we investigated that. But this stuff from past elections.
TrumpIt doesn't pass the smell test though, because we hear they're shredding thousands and thousands of ballots.
RaffenspergerMr. President, the problem that you have with social media, people can say anything.
TrumpOh this isn't social media. This is Trump media. It's not social media. It's really not, it's not social media. I don't care about social media. I couldn't care less. Social media is Big Tech. Big Tech is on your side. I don't even know why you have a side because you should want to have an accurate election. And you're a Republican.
RaffenspergerWe believe that we do have an accurate election.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 29:29 to 31:42.]
Cobb County
The conversation turned to which county had been checked for signatures, and then to the Georgia politician Trump blamed for the rules.
TrumpYou sent us into Cobb County for signature verification, right? You sent us into Cobb County, which we didn't want to go into, and you said it would be open to the public, so we had our experts there. They weren't allowed into the room. But we didn't want Cobb County. We wanted Fulton County, and you wouldn't give it to us.
GermanyWe chose Cobb County because that was the only county where there's been any evidence submitted that the signature verification was not properly done.
TrumpNo, but I told you, but we're not saying that.
TrumpFulton County. Look, in my opinion, Stacey is as dishonest as they come. She has outplayed you at everything. She got you to sign a totally unconstitutional agreement, which is a disastrous agreement.
RaffenspergerHarvesting is still illegal in the state of Georgia, and that settlement agreement did not change that one iota.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 32:03 to 34:12.]
The ask
Thirty-eight minutes in, after a passage about signature verification in Fulton County, Trump told Raffensperger and Germany that failing to report fraud was itself a crime. Then he said what the call was for.
TrumpAnd they're going around playing you and laughing at you behind your back, Brad. Whether you know it or not, they're laughing at you, and you've taken a state that's a Republican state, and you've made it almost impossible for a Republican to win because of cheating, because they cheated like nobody's ever cheated before.
TrumpThat's a criminal offense, and you can't let that happen. That's a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer. That's a big risk.
TrumpSo look, all I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state, and flipping the state is a great testament to our country because it's a testament that they can admit to a mistake or whatever you want to call it, if it was a mistake. I don't know. A lot of people think it wasn't a mistake. It was much more criminal than that, but it's a big problem in Georgia and it's not a problem that's going away. I mean, it's not a problem that's going away.
GermanyMr. President, this is Ryan. We're looking into every one of those things that you mentioned.
TrumpGood, but if you find it you've got to say it, Ryan.
GermanyAnd they are.
GermanyLet me tell you what we are seeing.
GermanyWhat we're seeing is not at all what you're describing. These are investigators from our office, these are investigators from GBI, and they're looking and they're good, and that's not what they're seeing. And we'll keep looking. We'll keep looking at all these things.
TrumpWell, you better check the ballots because they are shredding ballots, Ryan. I'm just telling you, Ryan. They're shredding ballots.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 36:05 to 39:04.]
Provisional and military ballots
TrumpSure, but I mean, are they counted or did you just hold them back because? In other words, how many provisional ballots do you have in the state?
RaffenspergerWe'll get you that number.
TrumpAnd what about that batch of military ballots that came in. And even though I won the military by a lot, it was 100% Trump. I mean, 100% Biden. Do you know about that?
TrumpOkay, Cleta. I'm not asking you Cleta, honestly. I'm asking Brad. Do you know about the military ballots that we have confirmed now? Do you know about the military ballots that came in that were 100% for Biden. Do you know about that?
GermanyI don't know about that. I do know that we have when military ballots come in, it's not just military. It's also military and overseas citizens. The military part of that does generally go Republican. The overseas citizen part of it generally goes very Democrat.
TrumpLook, Brad, I have to find 12,000 votes, and I have them times a lot, and therefore, I won the state. That's before we go to the next step, which is in the process of right now. And I watched you this morning and you said, "Well, there was no criminality," but all of this stuff is very dangerous stuff. When you talk about no criminality, I think it's very dangerous for you to say that.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 40:02 to 42:17.]
Did you ever check?
The longest single exchange of the call is Trump asking Germany, five different ways, whether anyone examined who the Fulton County ballots were marked for.
TrumpThe Ruby Freeman thing, the one thing I forgot to say, which was the most important, do you know that every single ballot she did went to Biden. You know that, right? Do you know that, by the way, Brad? Every single ballot that she did through the machines at early, early in the morning went to Biden. Did you know that, Ryan?
GermanyThat's not accurate, Mr. President.
TrumpHuh. What is accurate?
GermanyThe numbers that we are showing are accurate.
TrumpNo, about Ruby Freeman, about early in the morning, Ryan. When the whole gang took the stuff from under the table, right? Do you know who those ballots ... Do who they were made out to? Do you know who they were voting for?
GermanyNo, not specifically.
TrumpDid you ever check?
GermanyWe did what I described to you earlier.
TrumpNo, no, no. Did you ever check the ballots that were scanned by Ruby Freeman, a known political operative and balloteer. Did ever check who those votes were for?
GermanyWe looked into that situation that you described.
TrumpNo, they were 100% for Biden. 100%. There wasn't a Trump vote in the whole group. Why don't you want to find this, Ryan? What's wrong with you?
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 44:57 to 46:19.]
We have to stand by our numbers
RaffenspergerMr. President, you have people that submit information and we have our people that submit information and then it comes before the court. And the court then has to make a determination. We have to stand by our numbers. We believe our numbers are right.
TrumpHey Brad, why wouldn't you want to check out Ruby Freeman? And why wouldn't you want to say, "Hey, if in fact President Trump is right about that, then he wins the state of Georgia"? Just that one incident alone, without going through hundreds of thousands of dropped ballots.
TrumpBut why wouldn't you want to find the right answer, Brad, instead of keep saying that the numbers are right? Because those numbers are so wrong.
MitchellYou have data and records that we don't have access to, and you keep telling us and making public statements that you've investigated this and nothing to see here. But we don't know about that. All we know is what you tell us. What I don't understand is why wouldn't it be in everyone's best interest to try to get to the bottom, compare the numbers.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 48:07 to 50:56.]
The lawyers try to make a deal
TrumpBecause all we have to do, Cleta, is find 11,000 plus votes. So we don't need that. I'm not looking to shake up the whole world. We won Georgia easily. We won it by hundreds of thousands of votes. But if you go by basic simple numbers, we want it easily. Easily. We're not giving Dominion a pass, on the record.
HilbertMr. President and Cleta, this is Kurt Hilbert. If I might interject here for a moment. Ryan, I would like to suggest that to just four categories that have already been mentioned by the president that have actually hard numbers of 24,149 folks that were counted illegally. That in and of itself is sufficient to change the results or replace the outcome in doubt. We would like to just sit down with your office, and we can do it through purposes of compromise and settlement just like this phone call, just to deal with that limited category of votes.
HilbertIf you can convince us that that 24,149 is inaccurate, then fine. But we tend to believe that that is obviously more than 11,779 that's sufficient to change the result entirely in and of itself. What would you say to that, Mr. Germany?
GermanyKurt, I'm happy to... I'll get with our lawyers and we'll set that up. But that number is not accurate, and I think we can show you for all the ones we've looked at why it's not. So if that would be helpful, I'm happy to get with our lawyers and set that up with you guys.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 51:57 to 54:03.]
Near the end
TrumpBut you're allowed to have a phony election? You're allowed to have a phony election, right?
GermanyNo, sir.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 57:51 to 57:56.]
Signing off
In the last minutes Trump moved from the numbers to Raffensperger himself, then asked the lawyers to meet the following day.
TrumpThe only people that like you are people that will never vote for you. You know that, Brad, right? They like you. They like you. They can't believe what they found. They want more people like you.
TrumpLook, can you get together tomorrow? Brad, we just want the truth. It's simple. And everyone's going to look very good if the truth comes out. It's okay. It takes a little while, but let the truth come out. The real truth is I won by 400,000 votes at least. That's the real truth, but we don't need 400,000 votes. We need less than 2,000 votes.
RaffenspergerRyan will be in touch with the other attorney on this call. Mr. Meadows. Thank you, President Trump, for your time.
TrumpOkay. Thank you, Brad. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you. Thank you, everybody.
[Transcript, call of January 2, 2021, 01:00:29 to 01:01:53.]
The recording became public the following day. Four days after the call, Congress met to count the electoral votes. Georgia’s certified margin did not change.