On Friday, February 3, 2023, a Norfolk Southern freight train derailed in East Palestine, Ohio. The following Monday afternoon, five of the tank cars were deliberately breached and burned in what the emergency managers on the panel called a controlled detonation. On March 9, chief executive Alan Shaw sat before the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee alongside an EPA regional administrator, the director of Ohio EPA, and two water officials. Chairman Tom Carper began with three questions he wanted answered yes or no.
Three yes-or-no questions
CarperMy first question is just a simple yes or no question, I have three of them. I think Americans, if we could get them all in this room, a lot of them would ask the same questions, if this happened in their towns. Yes or no, will you commit that Norfolk Southern will be there as long as it takes to make East Palestine, Ohio, Darlington Township in Pennsylvania, and the surrounding communities whole from this disaster? Yes or no.
ShawSenator, thank you for that question. I understand that concern. That is the same concern that is shared with me by the residents of East Palestine and Darlington Township. I am terribly sorry for the impact this derailment has had on the folks of that community, and yes, it is my personal commitment and Norfolk Southern's commitment that we are going to be there for as long as it takes to help East Palestine thrive and recover. That is my personal commitment.
CarperI take that as a yes, thank you. That is the answer I was looking for. Next question. Will you commit that Norfolk Southern will compensate the people in these communities for possible long-term medical costs and economic damages resulting from this disaster? Yes or no, please.
ShawSenator, we are committed to doing what is right for the folks of East Palestine and the community. That has been my personal commitment since the day after this happened. I pulled my team together and I told my team, we are going to do more than less with the environmental cleanup, and we are going to do more than less with the citizens of East Palestine.
CarperMy third question is, yes or no, will you commit to paying for long-term medical testing for people in the impacted communities to ensure that anyone with known or suspected exposure to dangerous chemicals due to this disaster is monitored for adverse health effects? Yes or no.
ShawSenator, I am committed to doing what is right. We are going to be there today, tomorrow, a year from now, 5 years from now, 10 years from now. I told the community that. I have been there in person. I looked into their eyes. I have heard their concerns. I have been in their family rooms. I am committed to that community, and so is Norfolk Southern.
CarperAll right, thank you for that.
[Hearing transcript, March 9, 2023, questioning by Sen. Carper.]
Who was in the room
Senator Markwayne Mullin of Oklahoma went at the decision to vent and burn the tank cars, and at where the waste from the site was going.
MullinWell, we have reports that East Liverpool in Ohio is receiving this waste from East Palestine that has been disposed of. Is that accurate?
ShawSenator, standing here today, I do not know if that is accurate as of this time.
MullinDo you know where the waste is going to?
ShawWe are in the process of working with the EPA on a number of facilities.
MullinWe have not identified where it is moving to yet?
ShawSenator, we are in the process of working with the EPA on a number of facilities that----
MullinI understand that. I am just, I get you are in the process. We have not identified a place where this is being removed to yet. Is that accurate?
ShawSenator, I want to make sure I give you the most accurate----
MullinI get that. I am just saying, is it accurate that we do not have a spot yet for it?
ShawSenator, we are moving some offsite.
MullinWhere is it moving to?
ShawI am happy to give you a list of those facilities?
MullinMr. Shaw, when the vent and burn process was being made, who made those decisions and what was other considerations, other than just burning it and letting the material burn off?
ShawThank you for that question. The only consideration, Senator, was the safety and health of the community. That decision was made by the unified command under the direction of the incident commander.
MullinWho is that?
ShawThe incident commander was Fire Chief Drabick. Norfolk Southern was a part of the unified command.
MullinWho owns the car? Who actually owned the rail card with the material in it?
ShawThe rail cars in question are tank cars which no railroad owns.
MullinWere they considered in this decisionmaking? Are they responsible for the content of it, and the car itself, for the maintenance and the material in it, isn't that correct?
ShawSenator, it is a privately owned rail car. The maintenance requirements for that rail car are between the rail car lessor and the customer and those are private contracts. I am not privy to those.
MullinThey are responsible for the content and the car, correct, making sure it is operating properly?
ShawYes, sir.
MullinWere they in the room when the decision was being made? I have received reports that they weren't. They weren't in the room?
ShawNo, sir, not to my knowledge.
MullinI just see that kind of hard to believe, considering that it is their car, it is their responsibility, and they weren't even considered before this decision to vent and burn it in the middle of a town. Doesn't that seem like possibly a mistake there?
ShawSenator, unified command was focused solely on the health and safety of the community.
MullinRight. The people that was in charge of the car should probably have a say in that to make sure we know the best way to dispose of it.
ShawMy understanding at the time from talking to experts was that we were at risk of a catastrophic rupture that would have resulted in uncontrolled release of hazardous materials.
MullinI am saying, if it is accurate, if that was accurate, wouldn't you consider that is a place we could probably learn from?
ShawI think the primary concern was the health and safety of the communities.
MullinI hear you. We are just talking in circles here.
[Hearing transcript, March 9, 2023, questioning by Sen. Mullin.]
Precision scheduled railroading
SandersMr. Shaw, Wall Street, about a decade ago, in order to increase the profits they were earning in the rail industry, implemented a program called precision scheduled railroading. The result of that is that Norfolk Southern reduced its workforce by almost 40 percent over 6 years. Meanwhile, in fact, Wall Street's goal was achieved, profits soared for Norfolk Southern. You made over $3 billion in profits last year. I have been told by workers who work for your company and other rail companies that they are now being asked to do more work with fewer workers. That includes safety inspections. Well before this disaster in East Palestine, we have been told about the potential safety hazards. Will you make a commitment right now to the American people that you will lead the industry in ending this disastrous precision schedule railroading, which has slashed your work force and made railroading much less safe? Yes or no, will you make that commitment?
ShawSenator, I understand your concern and I share that concern. If you will permit, I have a couple points on that. I became CEO in May of last year. Ever since that point, Senator, we have been on a hiring spree. The number of employees at Norfolk Southern today is 1,500 more than it was this time last year.
SandersYou will forgive me, I do not mean to be rude. We just do not have a whole lot of time here. I understand that. You will not deny what you are trying to do is rebuild from the massive layoffs that took place. My question back to you again, Wall Street, not the industry, imposed this on the industry. Wall Street said, we are not making enough money. Cut workers, cut workers, cut workers, even if it endangers safety. My question to you, very simply, sir, will you lead the industry in doing away with precision scheduled railroading, that concept?
ShawSenator, in December of last year, I charted a new course in the industry that said we are going to move away from a near-term focus solely on profits, and that we are going to take a longer-term view that is founded on our engagement with our craft employees who are so critical to our success. We were the first to pivot out of it.
SandersLet me drill a bit again. I apologize for cutting you off. When you talk about your employees, the entire Country I think was shocked to learn a number of months ago that your employees, rail workers, who work in dangerous, dangerous jobs in all kinds of weather, has zero paid sick days. Now, I know that is beginning to change. I would ask you, given the fact that Norfolk Southern provided $10 billion in stock buybacks recently, can you tell the American people and your employees right now that in order to improve morale in your work force, that you will guarantee at least seven paid sick days to the 15,000 workers you employ? I do know you have made some progress. You increased paid sick days to some of your workers. Will you do what most Americans think is pretty obvious, that when you get sick, you get guaranteed paid sick days? Will you make that commitment right now to your entire work force?
ShawSenator, with our latest agreement with our employees, which included a historic 24 percent wage increase and access to premium health care benefits, we immediately pivoted to talking to each of our local----
SandersI have been deeply involved. I introduced the amendment on the floor. I know the issue. What I am asking you right now, you provided paid sick days to some of your employees. I got it, thank you. Will you now do what most America, we get here in Congress, our employees get sick, they get paid sick days. Will you make that commitment right now to guarantee paid sick days to al of your workers? That is not a radical demand. It really is not. Will you make that commitment, sir?
ShawSenator, I share your focus on our employees. I will commit to continuing to discuss with them important quality of life issues with our local craft colleagues.
SandersWith all due respect, you sound like a politician, Mr. Shaw. Paid sick days is not a radical concept in the year 2023. I am not hearing you make that commitment to guarantee that to all of your workers. Clearly, we should have that for every worker in America. I am not hearing that commitment. Will you make that commitment, sir?
ShawSenator, I am committed to continuing to speak to our employees about quality of life issues that are important to them.
SandersLast question. You talked about covering the needs of the people of East Palestine. Does that include paying for their health care needs? All of their health care needs.
ShawSenator, we are going to do what is right for the citizens of East Palestine.
SandersWhat is right is to cover their health care needs. Will you do that?
ShawEverything is on the table, sir.
[Hearing transcript, March 9, 2023, questioning by Sen. Sanders.]
Would you live there
Senator Lindsey Graham picked up where Sanders left off, then put the same question to the whole panel.
GrahamDid that have anything to do with this accident directly?
ShawSenator, thank you for that question. The NTSB report said that Norfolk Southern crew did everything that they were supposed to do. I personally thank them for that.
GrahamAll right, so let's get back to what we are here for, is to try to solve the problem in front of us. What caused this?
ShawSenator, the NTSB report is still ongoing. I am not waiting to act.
GrahamIt wasn't lack of personnel, right?
ShawThere is no indication that it was lack of personnel.
GrahamOr that they did anything wrong?
ShawThe NTSB specifically said there is no indication that the Norfolk Southern crew did anything wrong.
GrahamI want to focus on the moment we have here. How many times have you been to East Palestine?
ShawSenator, I have been there five times.
GrahamMs. Shore, have you been there?
ShoreSenator Graham, I have spent 11 out of the last 30 days in East Palestine.
GrahamDo you think you have benefited from having been there and listened to the people?
ShoreVery much so.
GrahamYes is good. Would you be willing to go with President Biden if he chose to go there? Would you be willing to go with him if he asked you to go?
ShawSenator, I want to keep the politics out of it. I am not qualified.
GrahamIt is not a political question. The question is, if the President asked you to go, would you go with him?
ShawI will go with anybody who wants to go and help the community of East Palestine.
GrahamThe bottom line is, would either one of you have a problem living there full time given the condition on the ground? Do you feel it is safe to continue to reside in this town? Mr. Shaw?
ShawSenator, the EPA and Ohio EPA have very high standards. I trust their testing.
GrahamWould you live there, given what you have seen?
ShawYes, sir. I believe the air is safe, I believe the water is safe. There are hundreds of tests, there are millions of data points. They all point to the same thing. I genuinely enjoy my conversations with the folks in East Palestine.
GrahamMs. Shore, do you agree that it is a safe place to live?
ShoreSenator Graham, science is EPA's north star. We follow the science. I drink the water there; I drink it every time I go to town. The scientific data shows that it is safe, as does the air.
GrahamThat is good. Ms. Vogel, you are from Ohio. Have you been there?
VogelI have been in East Palestine since February 3d, with the exception of 5 days.
GrahamWould you have a problem living there now?
VogelI mostly do.
GrahamYou do have a problem with living there?
VogelI mostly live there.
GrahamOkay, so you are Okay?
VogelYes, sir. My team and I have been there for the last month.
[Hearing transcript, March 9, 2023, questioning by Sen. Graham.]